Discussion:
Concerning the modern GD splinter-groups.
(too old to reply)
al-Ghazzi
2006-03-27 04:11:16 UTC
Permalink
I want to say at the outset that this post is not aimed at any one
person or organization, but rather at all organizations and their
adherents perporting to practice the Golden Dawn system of magic, and
involving themselves in internet flame wars and legal threats.
The Golden Dawn's modern manifestations are many and varied, of course.
I don't see why it's so important for people to hold their loyalties
above their magical development.
Let me make my point perfectly clear: these idiotic political arguments
and legal threats being shot back and forth and bandied about like
little fuzzy toys in the paws of cats are exactly contrary to the
spirit of Golden Dawn magic and are, in fact, disgustingly similar to
what caused the original Golden Dawn schism.
I understand the importance, for many people, of keeping the Golden
Dawn current as traditional and 'pure' as possible. For them, that's a
very noble goal to pursue. They need to understand quite well,
however, that not everybody views it that way, and that those who
choose to make use of the Golden Dawn material at their disposal may do
so in any way that they wish.
On the flip side, those who have made their own modifications to the
Golden Dawn system, or who have made the published material part of
their Outer Order, or whatever other changes may have been made, need
to realize that they have, in fact, modified the system and that, while
this is ok, it isn't what some people think of as GD.
Neither side is right or wrong; they're merely approaching the issue
from different angles. My main issue is that rather than carrying on
with the Great Work, they're wasting time, energy and in some cases
money in the pursuit of their own concept of orthopraxy. What's more
important, ladies and gentlemen: the Great Work of Magic, or petty
legal battles?
As far as I can tell there will always be the perceived need to
monopolize being in control of what precisely should and should not be
considered the Great Work. For as many advocates there are politicking
their causes, invariably detractors will arise campaigning against
ideologies and their ideologues.

The praxis of the Golden Dawn war of words in my estimation began when
its very name became copyrighted. That it all appears as if Golden
Dawn infighting now is a matter of political genius.

*The Order of the S.'.S.'.*

"Members of the Order are each entitled to found Orders dependent on
themselves on the lines of the R. C. and G. D. orders, to cover types
of emancipation and illumination not contemplated by the original (or
main) system. All such orders must, however, be constituted in harmony
with the A.'. A.'. as regards the essential principles."

-Aleister Crowley, _One Star In Sight_

It began as a desperate attempt to keep the Great Work from being
advocated in the G.'.D.'. by Chic. You'll remember, at one time,
Argenteum Astrum was the G.'.D.'.'s Third Order.

"The Third Order is a purely theoretical one. It consists of the
grades corresponding to the highest spheres of Binah, Chokmah, and
Kether on the Tree of Life: Magister Templi 8=3, Magus 9=2, and
Ipsissimus 10=1. The grades are not attained by living persons,
although in some groups individuals occasionally claim to hold these
high degrees honorarily. No one in the Golden Dawn system can hold
them in actuality."

-- Chic Cicero, "The Essential Golden Dawn"; [Llewellyn Publications;
circa: 2003; page 143].

My guess is sooner or later Magister Templis who spent their time
wisely acquiring knowledge in R.'.C.'. won't be harassed about
copyrights or Charters when establishing their Outer Orders.

You're nowhere near attempting to advocate what I've grown to know as
the Great Work, which is fine by me. You are however after collective
G.'.D.'. unification. I respect that; but is it a feasible endeavor? I
guess that just depends on how the G.'.D.'., collectively, chooses to
opt for the inclusion or the continual rejection of the Third Order in
its curriculums. It's really that simple.
Anituel
2006-03-27 05:44:47 UTC
Permalink
I'm actually not at all interested in the unification of various GD
Orders and organizations. I couldn't care any less, in fact. What I'm
saying is that the constant fighting over what (and who) "is" or "is
not" Golden Dawn is a pointless waste of time. It's just a distraction
from, say, performing magic.
al-Ghazzi
2006-03-27 06:10:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anituel
I'm actually not at all interested in the unification of various GD
Orders and organizations. I couldn't care any less, in fact. What I'm
saying is that the constant fighting over what (and who) "is" or "is
not" Golden Dawn is a pointless waste of time. It's just a distraction
from, say, performing magic.
Apparently you believe the Great Work is up for reinterpretation. A
fraternal link central to all working magic. Fantastic. Tell us: for
what detrimental aim do you believe we should be wielding our magic?

It's very clear to me that you're not a Rosicrucian under no matter
the banner, all after so little prodding. So what was your point in
all of this, then? What do you stand to gain? Or lose? G.'.D.'. is of
no consequence to you, as you've made abundantly clear. Are you asking
G.'.D.'.ers to quit fighting in favor of breaking their fraternal
bond, if one was ever made comprehensive and clear?

I made known to you what the fight was, is and will continue to be
about. The solution to the problem doesn't rest in throwing all
ideology out of the window in favor of working magic to suit
individual needs. That's anarchy. It's already anarchy. It's about the
need for order and if not commonality then a fair coexistence between
all Western Orders. Blokes being Chiefs of Orders who really are
initiated into the mysteries would be a nice change of pace as well.
Pax
2006-03-27 09:42:39 UTC
Permalink
al-Ghazzi wrote:
<snip>
Post by al-Ghazzi
Blokes being Chiefs of Orders who really are
initiated into the mysteries would be a nice change of pace as well.
Or women even? Are you trying to wind me up or was that an entirely
unconscious piece of sexism? Hmmm?

Gotcha.

Apache Pax.
Archangel
2006-03-27 14:16:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by al-Ghazzi
Post by Anituel
I'm actually not at all interested in the unification of various GD
Orders and organizations. I couldn't care any less, in fact. What I'm
saying is that the constant fighting over what (and who) "is" or "is
not" Golden Dawn is a pointless waste of time. It's just a distraction
from, say, performing magic.
Apparently you believe the Great Work is up for reinterpretation. A
fraternal link central to all working magic. Fantastic. Tell us: for
what detrimental aim do you believe we should be wielding our magic?
It's very clear to me that you're not a Rosicrucian under no matter
the banner, all after so little prodding. So what was your point in
all of this, then? What do you stand to gain? Or lose? G.'.D.'. is of
no consequence to you, as you've made abundantly clear. Are you asking
G.'.D.'.ers to quit fighting in favor of breaking their fraternal
bond, if one was ever made comprehensive and clear?
I made known to you what the fight was, is and will continue to be
about. The solution to the problem doesn't rest in throwing all
ideology out of the window in favor of working magic to suit
individual needs. That's anarchy. It's already anarchy. It's about the
need for order and if not commonality then a fair coexistence between
all Western Orders. Blokes being Chiefs of Orders who really are
initiated into the mysteries would be a nice change of pace as well.
Does anyone really give a damn?

A
Anituel
2006-03-28 00:37:37 UTC
Permalink
al-Ghazzi ignorantly spewed-forth:
"Apparently you believe the Great Work is up for reinterpretation. A
fraternal link central to all working magic. Fantastic. Tell us: for
what detrimental aim do you believe we should be wielding our magic?

"It's very clear to me that you're not a Rosicrucian under no matter
the banner, all after so little prodding. So what was your point in
all of this, then? What do you stand to gain? Or lose? G.'.D.'. is of
no consequence to you, as you've made abundantly clear. Are you asking
G.'.D.'.ers to quit fighting in favor of breaking their fraternal
bond, if one was ever made comprehensive and clear?"


Now I see why alt.magick is "feared" by the magical community. Not for
an overabundance of intelligence or practical discussion, nor even
insightful debate, but for idiotic attacks on people who were simply
trying to express an opinion, discuss an experience or make a point.
So thank you for exemplifying the problem with all newsgroups:
unthoughtful flames disguised as well-informed debate material.

I'd like to ask: when did I say a word about reinterpreting the Great
Work? Also, let me know where I said anything about a fraternal link,
or anything about 'detrimental aims' for magic. Please do tell me,
because I must have missed having said those things, or perhaps I just
don't know English and am merely spewing syllables that happen to look
a lot like it. Perhaps I can respond to your questions if you
reformulate them in such a way as to make any damned sense. And I
never claimed to be a Rosicrucian, an initiate of any given order, or
any of the other things you appear to be claiming above (though perhaps
I'm misinterpreting; your statements are horribly unclear).

If you'd like for me to restate my point, FOR A SECOND TIME, I'll do
that here: The fighting between Golden Dawn organization is pointless.
They should get on with their work. Yes, commonality would be great,
as would relatively peaceful coexistence. And those goals would be
best served by ceasing said pointless fighting. Perhaps I could grow
to respect one of those organizations enough to aim for initiation into
one of them if they weren't all acting like small children fighting
over a sandbox. Period. End of story. That's all she wrote. Elvis
has just left the building.
Archangel
2006-03-28 13:01:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anituel
"Apparently you believe the Great Work is up for reinterpretation. A
fraternal link central to all working magic. Fantastic. Tell us: for
what detrimental aim do you believe we should be wielding our magic?
"It's very clear to me that you're not a Rosicrucian under no matter
the banner, all after so little prodding. So what was your point in
all of this, then? What do you stand to gain? Or lose? G.'.D.'. is of
no consequence to you, as you've made abundantly clear. Are you asking
G.'.D.'.ers to quit fighting in favor of breaking their fraternal
bond, if one was ever made comprehensive and clear?"
Now I see why alt.magick is "feared" by the magical community. Not for
an overabundance of intelligence or practical discussion, nor even
insightful debate, but for idiotic attacks on people who were simply
trying to express an opinion, discuss an experience or make a point.
unthoughtful flames disguised as well-informed debate material.
Yep. And dishonesty, dissembling, distortion, half-truths and downright
lies. It has always been thus courtesy of Josh Geller and Tom Schuler and
their dumb acolytes. alt.magick was created as and still is a vehicle for
their masturbatory fantasies about themselves. At least Josh Geller had the
good grace to fuck off.
Post by Anituel
I'd like to ask: when did I say a word about reinterpreting the Great
Work? Also, let me know where I said anything about a fraternal link,
or anything about 'detrimental aims' for magic. Please do tell me,
because I must have missed having said those things, or perhaps I just
don't know English and am merely spewing syllables that happen to look
a lot like it. Perhaps I can respond to your questions if you
reformulate them in such a way as to make any damned sense. And I
never claimed to be a Rosicrucian, an initiate of any given order, or
any of the other things you appear to be claiming above (though perhaps
I'm misinterpreting; your statements are horribly unclear).
If you'd like for me to restate my point, FOR A SECOND TIME, I'll do
that here: The fighting between Golden Dawn organization is pointless.
They should get on with their work. Yes, commonality would be great,
as would relatively peaceful coexistence. And those goals would be
best served by ceasing said pointless fighting. Perhaps I could grow
to respect one of those organizations enough to aim for initiation into
one of them if they weren't all acting like small children fighting
over a sandbox. Period. End of story. That's all she wrote. Elvis
has just left the building.
I fully agree.

A
Jason
2006-03-28 15:19:57 UTC
Permalink
We all see that you're a dumb ass; aside from the Troll you've befriended.
As I see it al-Ghazzi unveiled your motivation and agenda posting about the
G.'.D.'. Even when that motivation to you may have not been clear. And it
pissed you off.

You don't know what the Great Work is. You said it was "magic". You
reinterpreted "The Great Work". You in your own words couldn't care less
about the G.'.D.'., but have since changed your position. You claim
al-Ghazzi's post was incomprehensive to you but you respond to every one of
his points clearly, though albeit with reservation; and in the wake of
embarrassment of being called on your sophomoric manipulation you attack the
guy personally. I'm assuming he's a guy. Brilliant and original tactic, btw.

Face it. The whole point of you writing about the G.'.D.'. fighting was to
unite their followers in an aim that isn't 'pure' Rosicrucianism. And
despite claiming not to take a position within the G.'.D.'. war, you have.

You suck, are called on YOUR OWN GOD DAMN IGNORANCE, and are a dumb ass. Off
your chin. That a boy.
Tainted Angel
2006-03-28 19:42:08 UTC
Permalink
I can't help but be amused at your fighting at the state of affairs of
'Golden Dawn' magick. First off, it should be welcomed. Diversity
breeds various types of religious viewpoints of something, and makes it
moe able to adapt. (the base reasoning for that is why there are so
many christian variations: in the chaos of many good ideas and
interpretations flourish).

I can invision a potential explosion of variations of magick, something
that is much more able to find the 'magic bullet' to populism, compared
to than 'purification' attempts (which might take in some, but also
lead to stagnations of the faith. See schims of the 1600s-today).

Somehow I think magic might not be about the old way in the future, but
that is another discussion. Let me say that I think hackers may be the
future of a 'changing nature' system of belief for a semi order of
technomages. The book 'Amercian gods' shows how religion today is more
of a veil people use instead of the popular of our age.)

The point is I think rather a continuation of a religion or order based
on the beliefs of changing surroundings with actions (the root of
magic) as possible, ONLY if it is allowed to 'breed' with other
beliefs, systems and orders over generations, instead of stagnating in
the 'Golden Dawn' perfectionism that is being distilled by
practitioners AFAICT.

How a cybercult of magicians might work is a different topic best left
to technology NG's and theorists.

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