Just a few questions.

[Cameron]

Would this be an appropriate place to raise an open discussion of magick, in
terms of altering ones state and function of mind and the effect of that
upon self and others?

I am intrested in discussing from a psychological perspective the beliefs of
various traditions in a questioning, but not mocking tone.

It's been my unfortunate experience to mostly experience praticioners as
those who would like to have faith or those that seek to dominate,
consciously or not, others.

I see many of the rituals (both high ritual and everyday belief) as being
mind flips that promote belief and interpretation irrespective of reality. I
do accept that these processes can raise power but I would question raising
power at the cost of blindness.

[Elsairon]

Post by Cameron
Would this be an appropriate place to raise an open discussion of magick, in
terms of altering ones state and function of mind and the effect of that
upon self and others?

This place is as appropriate as any other.

Post by Cameron
I am intrested in discussing from a psychological perspective the beliefs of
various traditions in a questioning, but not mocking tone.

<snip>

Post by Cameron
I see many of the rituals (both high ritual and everyday belief) as being
mind flips that promote belief and interpretation irrespective of reality. I
do accept that these processes can raise power but I would question raising
power at the cost of blindness.

What perspective are you using to view reality in the context of these
statements, and how are you interpreting what you percieve this way ?

What is the power you are referring to ?

What is the blindness you are referring to ?

(simple example) Close my eyes to hear better, a change of perspective...
things seen no longer apply to perspective, which is in a totally different
context.

[Cameron]

"Elsairon" <***@verizon.net> wrote in message news:WMP7g.3404$***@trnddc08...
<my poorly defined reference to a percieved ritual, communal and idealogical
tradeoff between defined reality and reality itself. sniped>

Post by Elsairon

I do accept that these processes can raise power but I would question
raising power at the cost of blindness.

What perspective are you using to view reality in the context of these
statements, and how are you interpreting what you percieve this way ?
What is the power you are referring to ?

from group dynamics up through an ability to define reality as you choose
(presumabally to create effect) to the non observable non tangible end of
the spectrum.

Prehaps effect is closer to the word I wanted, except with a continuance
through time as these effects shape yoru worldview.

Post by Elsairon
What is the blindness you are referring to ?

As two extreme and crude examples, a junkie who has molded their perception
of self to externalise the process of having arrived where they are and
caries a resentment against the world. (could be usefull in some ways in
justifying previous behaviour and could also make future behaviour more
likely).

Or

A priest who is so full of faith in their religion that they fail to
appreciate anything about anyone elses.

I'ld suggest the raising of power and the blindness are not inexorabally
linked and I'ld also suggest that they often are to some degree.

Post by Elsairon
(simple example) Close my eyes to hear better, a change of perspective...
things seen no longer apply to perspective, which is in a totally different
context.

This is probally another good example of what I am speaking of, at a low
level.
It's well knowen that blind people tend to have better hearing and other
perceptions. In terms of magical training a blindfold and poking your eyes
out would be two ways of achieving that effect, I'me all for the blindfold.

[Nechesh]

What the Thinker thinks, the Prover proves.

Cameron, whatever you believe, it is a figment of your imagination.

The entire universe as you know it, is a construct of your brain, and
is contained within your own head.

To say that 'the rituals (both high ritual and everyday belief) (are)
mind flips that promote belief and interpretation irrespective of
reality',
is a truism, no matter who you are and what you believe.

So, all I can say to you, Seeker of Truth, is: experiment. Personally,
I've got all my answers to Life, the Universe and Everything. But
they're my answers to my questions, not your answers to your
questions.You are the only one who can provide you with your answers.

Go figure it out for yourself. There is no such thing as objective
reality. Just the personal and subjective fantasy contained in your
head. It is for you, and you alone, to come up with the unique answers
to your unique questions.

Go experiment.

In Light, Life and Love

Nechesh

[Cameron]

Post by Nechesh
What the Thinker thinks, the Prover proves.

Cogito, ergo sum proves your existance as a thinking being not much more.

Post by Nechesh
Cameron, whatever you believe, it is a figment of your imagination.
The entire universe as you know it, is a construct of your brain, and
is contained within your own head.

If you ever wanted a religion, you could slip right into Taoism :)

I broadcast this thread in a few places, and the differences between Social,
Personal and Absolute reality seem to be conversational sparing points that
have little depth behind them for some people.

Post by Nechesh
To say that 'the rituals (both high ritual and everyday belief) (are)
mind flips that promote belief and interpretation irrespective of
reality', is a truism, no matter who you are and what you believe.

Hell, some people found that comment deeply offensive, I agree it is a
truism where I sit. Some dont like their grand high invocation for the
evokation of the gradnpubar refered to as a "mind flip"

Post by Nechesh
So, all I can say to you, Seeker of Truth, is: experiment. Personally,
I've got all my answers to Life, the Universe and Everything. But
they're my answers to my questions, not your answers to your
questions.You are the only one who can provide you with your answers.

I have to admit I'me looking for more intresting questions and people to
discuss them with rather than answers, I've got my own too, and like you I
dont confuse them with any sort of absolute reality or even the final
conclusion for me personally

Post by Nechesh
Go figure it out for yourself. There is no such thing as objective
reality.

Would I be safe translating that to there is not such thing as an objective
view of reality. I sort of figured as Philip K. Dick put it "Reality is that
which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

The difference between those two positions, "There is no external reality"
and "you will never fully grasp that external reality" is one of the reasons
I started this thread. I remembering mentoring a chaos mage at one point
when he had sunk deper into the system than he could handle at the time, we
both managed to agree that the sandstone wall we were leaning against in all
probability did actually exist, not only in the common belief and in both
our personal experiences but in all probability even if no one was arround
to witness it.

[Nechesh]

Cameron wrote:> > What the Thinker thinks, the Prover proves.

Post by Cameron
Cogito, ergo sum proves your existance as a thinking being not much more.

Agreed. The 'what the Thinker thinks, the Prover proves' thing is from
the meta-programming school of psychology. It is an assumption which
claims that people believe what they want to believe and can always
find 'proof' for their beliefs, irrespective of any 'objective
evidence'. Essentially it's the 'I've made up my mind, don't confuse me
with the facts' syndrome :-)

Post by Cameron
If you ever wanted a religion, you could slip right into Taoism :)

Lao Tzu was a great influence on me when I was I recovering Christian
in religion-rehab.

Post by Cameron
I broadcast this thread in a few places, and the differences between Social,
Personal and Absolute reality seem to be conversational sparing points that
have little depth behind them for some people.

And yet these differences are of fundamental importance. If your
personal reality deviates too much from the social reality, then you
are likely to find yourself committed to the loony bin. There is a very
strong tradition of 'Silence' in the western magickal tradition - and
the wisdom to hold your tongue is highly valued. Too many heretic
gnostics and Rennaissance Men learnt this lesson the hard way!

Post by Cameron

Post by Nechesh
To say that 'the rituals (both high ritual and everyday belief) (are)
mind flips that promote belief and interpretation irrespective of
reality', is a truism, no matter who you are and what you believe.

Hell, some people found that comment deeply offensive, I agree it is a
truism where I sit. Some dont like their grand high invocation for the
evokation of the gradnpubar refered to as a "mind flip"

yes, people can become ever so agitated about such things :-D

Post by Cameron

Post by Nechesh
Go figure it out for yourself. There is no such thing as objective
reality.

Would I be safe translating that to there is not such thing as an objective
view of reality. I sort of figured as Philip K. Dick put it "Reality is that
which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

<chuckle> I dunno about that. P K Dick seems to underestimate people's
ability to remain in denial :)

Post by Cameron
The difference between those two positions, "There is no external reality"
and "you will never fully grasp that external reality" is one of the reasons
I started this thread. I remembering mentoring a chaos mage at one point
when he had sunk deper into the system than he could handle at the time, we
both managed to agree that the sandstone wall we were leaning against in all
probability did actually exist, not only in the common belief and in both
our personal experiences but in all probability even if no one was arround
to witness it.

Yeh I've been there. But only on acid... :)

In Light, Life and Love

Nechesh